gomorrah explained, 5 cents

11/19/08

Disclaimer: I love my extended family unconditionally. HOWEVER, they occasionally do things that I find unconscionable, and this Mormon-sponsored Prop 8 disaster is probably the worst. Whether or not any individual family members gave money, I don’t know – but I do know they have a history of unbelievable bigotry towards gays. Even my beloved Auntie Donna once canvassed neighborhoods with some other women, in her misguided attempts to keep the “family” sacred in America.

One of my aunts confided in us recently, saying something akin to “I don’t care so much about the marriage, I just can’t get over the sex.” As I wrote to an old friend tonight, I think most gay men would be pretty horrified at the thought of a 70-something Mormon grandmother in the sack as well, so seems to me they’re even. Except that homosexuals don’t raise $43 million to strip Mormons of their civil rights.

But this brought up an interesting proposition: most people – and perhaps all Mormons – have NO IDEA what being gay really means. To them, when you discuss gay men, their thoughts immediately go to anal sex. Straight, no chaser. You talk about queers, they think rectal entry.

The truth is, a vast percentage of gay men don’t engage in any anal sex at all – when it comes to the primal, universal expression of lust, there are plenty of other ways to stoke your Vesuvius. But like every other human being on earth, sexual congress takes up .001% of their time, and the rest is spent in traffic, paying bills, writing emails, putting out fires at work, and flossing. And like most married couples, they’re probably not having sex at all.

Most of the straight world (and Mormons) know nothing of a “top” and a “bottom”, and the more complicated dynamic of “topping from the bottom”. They know nothing of the intensity and longevity of most lesbian romances, and they don’t know why many gay women keep their nails short. They don’t know the jokes about Chelsea boys or U-Haul girls. All they know is lisping, mincing, and maybe Judy Garland and Liberace.

Studies have shown that the only way for people to change their minds about gay people is to know one. If there is some personal connection to a homosexual, even the staunchest bigoted homophobe sees the light very quickly, and more importantly, changes the way they vote on the issue.

Problem is, none of my cousins in Salt Lake, American Fork, Orem, Provo or Pleasant Grove, Utah will ever meet a gay person, or at least a gay person who is out and honest. So I’m thinking I might set up a booth, or take private questions at our family reunion in August – I’m a flaming heterosexual, but I know enough about the gay lifestyle to answer 77% of the questions asked. Okay, so I won’t set up a booth, but you get the idea.

LucyPsychiatricBooth.jpg

In that light, help me out. Whether you want to use your name or be anonymous, share some of your knowledge of the gay world that mainstream America would never know unless someone sat them down and told them straight-out. If you’re of the homosexual persuasion, what are some of the things you’ve noticed that might surprise folks completely out of your world?

It can be detailed, exact, vague or even mundane. Thoughts?

0 thoughts on “gomorrah explained, 5 cents

  1. Claudia

    I gotta say, this post is a little unsettling. Your heart is in the right place, but I’m a little bit wary of the “let’s educate people about the Other” sort of rhetoric. Granted, I’ve never lived in a place where there were no out homosexuals, but all I can think to say about gays is that they are like anybody else. You allude to this with the line about the traffic and the bills and whatnot, but, really, I think that’s the sum total of what you’re getting at. I’m sure if you peeked into the bedroom of almost Any Couple in America, there’d be some surprising sights–i.e., Who knew Mailman Jim and his wife were into feathers?–and that gays are no exception, and that very fact is consistent with homosexuals and heterosexuals being more alike than different.

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  2. dean

    Slightly off topic:
    Isnt it possible that the passage of 8 reflects the “will of the people?” Time after time, these referendums pass throughout the country and it is always blamed on homophobes.
    If 8 had failed, the rabid conservatives would have blamed it on the unfair influence of whacky Hollywood liberals. Prop 8 passes and you whacky liberals blame it on the Mormons from 2 states away. If it has failed, thw pundits would have hailed it as a reflection of things to come b/c we are always told that CA tends to set the early tone for the rest of the country.
    Near-record turnout for a monumental Presidential election. Barack Obama wins fairly handily, especially in CA. But, in that instance, liberals claim it reflects the way that the countyr has turned to the correct direction. Those SAME voters on the SAME election day vote for 8 and it is blamed on religious zealouts and their financial contributions. The folks that voted for Obama: are they smart enough ot know that they should vote for Obama, but dumb enough to be corrupted by Mormons?
    Winners on election day always claim that the results reflect the will of the people. Losers on election day always claim corruption, blame the process, etc.
    What gives?
    dean

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  3. Anne

    When it comes to sexual activity, my attitude toward what other people do in privacy is kind of like Clinton’s famous motto: Don’t ask, don’t tell.
    IOW: I really don’t care to know. :-)
    On the practical side, I’m not sure that informing 70 year old Mormons about homosexual intimacy is going to sway them from their stance on gay marriage. Just MHO.

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  4. LFMD

    Sounds like the August reunion will be a hoot. Not.
    I am with CM. . . . I am stumped by the nail thing. I cut mine as short as they can be because I am germ-phobic and I think fingernails are a breeding ground for germs. Is there something lesbians know that I don’t?
    And, I disagree with you about the a– sex issue. I think that many heterosexuals are uncomfortable with the general idea of single sex couples. Holding hands, kissing, dancing, etc. I don’t think the thoughts go straight to the sex. It is the mere fact of an affectionate couple that is not male-female.

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  5. Alan

    With all due respect and appreciating this is likely quite offensive to plenty – does the idea of a society based on bigamy (even if not widely practiced or supported now) claiming the high ground in relation to the notion of “the family” not strike you as a tad off? One would thought that having a history of being driven to the fringe there might be some understanding amongst Mormons around, you know, what it is like being forced to live on the fringe.

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  6. LFMD

    I agree with Alan, although he is much more tactful than I. Do your Mormon relatives realize that outside of Utah, Mormons are thought of as a bit odd? Strange? Bordering on cultish?
    Maybe you can show some gay pornography and have a book club reading of David Ebershoff’s “The 19th Wife” during the reunion.
    As always, your heart is in the right place, but I doubt that you can change people’s minds like this. . .

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  7. kent

    Dean> the ‘will of the people’ is sometimes wrong. I don’t think Democracy failed, just that Democracy is messy and sometimes gets it wrong. *cough*Bush*cough*
    Alan> I think you mean ‘polygamy’ — and the actual LDS Church is both open about the polygamist heritage and very clear that there is zero tolerance now. It’s certainly not the case that there’s a polygamist or 2 in the LDS wards and their arrangement is winked at — if anyone was practicing polygamy would be excommunicated in a New York minute. And given the tight-knit nature of LDS wards, there’s no way it could be kept secret.
    The ‘Mormon’ polygamists active now are not in any way part of the LDS church. They’re splinter groups, and furthermore they’re toxic cults, rife with child abuse.

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  8. anonymous

    For clarity on why many voted for Prop 8 you must understand their reasoning behind it. Many Christians and Mormons believe that it is not their choice, but God’s word that dictates their vote. Setting up a booth deals with factual information about others, but it won’t sway their obedience to God and His word. To believers, the word supersedes earthly matters.
    I have a few gay and lesbian friends. I have been with them through break-ups, AIDS scares, gone on vacation, had dinners and parties, and rented my house to them. So, I know they are like me – a sinner. I love them, but because of my spiritual beliefs, can not support anything that would give validity to the lifestyle. To me, that is different than giving validity to them as a human being.
    I am their friend because life is all about relationships. Most importantly for me, it is about having a relationship with my savior.
    This is not a proselytizing comment nor a request for a debate on scripture. And, please don’t call me a nutcase. I simply wanted to present the idea that not everyone who supports Prop 8 is a homophobe.
    And, I know why they keep their nails cut short.

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  9. Steve Williams

    A Mormon friend speculated to me last week about the Mormon church’s real concern: The church hierarchy fear being forced to perform same-sex marriages, or else no marriages at all. I find that outcome completely implausible: The American tradition of religious freedom is too strong.
    Mormons long ago abandoned the practices that were and would still be intolerable in our society: polygyny and overt racism. Their remaining foibles, including paternalism and selfish materialism, probably will be tolerated for decades to come.
    So that’s something else we can say to Mormons: No WAY would we tolerate interference in Mormon religious practices.

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  10. CM

    I think I just figured out the nail thing, but I also think maybe the nails would add a dimension. ;)
    That said, you should have used a picture of Peppermint Patty instead.

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  11. dean

    Kent: Yes, democracy can be messy and can get things wrong. But, it is typically the losers that swear democracy got it wrong on a specific occasion.
    If I am not mistaken, amendments and referendums like 8 have basically passed every single time in every single state that they have arisen. How many times must such a referendum pass before it is seen as the will of the people instead of being a mistake? If 8 passes in a whacky liberal place like CA, it stands to reason it would have a good shot at passing in all 50 states. Hypothetically, if resolutions such as 8 eventually went to the ballot in all 50 states and continued to pass overwhelmingly, would it be 50 mistakes of democracy?

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  12. karin

    Anon…
    Do your gay friends know that your feelings? Do you have an open discourse with them about your spirituality or do you keep your true feelings to yourself (and us on the comments)?
    My parents have no religious affiliation but it wasn’t until the grandchildren came around that they began to support gay marriage – something about those sweet kids made their hearts go soft :)

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  13. Jason Savage

    I love them, but because of my spiritual beliefs, can not support anything that would give validity to the lifestyle. To me, that is different than giving validity to them as a human being.
    what a pile of steaming, hypocritical dung. you either love them or you don’t. and if you do, then you want them to be able to love who they love in any way they choose.

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  14. Deb

    Wow, I’m surprised at a lot of these comments; maybe everyone hasn’t had their coffee yet. Isn’t this blog, in part, to educate the Others? Duke fans, non-Coastopians, people filled with hate for no reason?
    I don’t know how you can categorically label a near 50-50 split as the will of the people. The problem I see is with putting Prop 8 on the ballot at all. It would be a slightly different story if the ballot initiative was to add gay marriage to the state constitution and it failed. But this was about *taking away a right* (since, clearly, the fabric of our society has started to crumble since those few thousand gay couples have gotten married). So, if it was the Mormon Church that got it put on the ballot in the first place, I do apportion more blame in their corner. In addition to the overwhelming number of African-Americans who pulled the lever for Obama, and in the same breath voted to deny a group of people their civil rights.
    I also don’t believe anyone is too old to learn compassion, empathy, and tolerance.
    As for the nails, just think about it. I learned about this the hard, or should I say, sharp way. Man, I’m so not getting a position in the Obama Administration now…
    Deb

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  15. Alan

    “…. Many Christians and Mormons believe that it is not their choice, but God’s word that dictates their vote. Setting up a booth deals with factual information about others, but it won’t sway their obedience to God and His word. To believers, the word supersedes earthly matters…”
    Just to be abundantly clear, I am a church-going believing Christian whose understanding of the Word of God is utterly at the heart of my awareness that this is fringe thought. We are cautioned often to be watchful of those who have fallen off the true path and watchful for false prophets. So I think what the anonymous poster above may have meant to say is:
    “Some believers have fallen into the trap of believing…”

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  16. Steve Williams

    Mormons never practiced polygamy. I’m fine with polygamy, as long as the kids aren’t mistreated.
    I detest polygyny because it disenfranchises women. Well, and because the Mormon leadership pitched it as revelation, when it was probably just a cold-hearted strategy to quickly increase the population so they’d be less likely to starve out there in the desert. But I’m willing to put up with mysticism as social engineering, as long as nobody gets hurt.
    The Mormons ended polgyny in 1890.
    As for racism: When I was ordained an Aaronic priest, Mormons still taught that non-whites were inferior, in that they could not hold the priesthood. That’s not OK, and they stopped that practice in 1978.
    Will the church one day relax its doctrine on women and gays? I think probably not. I think the church backtracked on polygyny and racism under societal and legal pressure. And I don’t think our society will pursue sexism and homophobia past the church house door.
    Except … their funding the Prop 8 campaign triggered protests outside their temples. By forgetting their own teaching to be “in the world, but not of the world,” the Mormon leadership may have triggered exactly the kind of societal pressure they hoped to avoid.

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  17. Chuck B.

    My first thought was — If “like every other human being on earth, sexual congress takes up .001% of their time,” then they need to be having more sex! That’s like one hour-long session every 7 years. I hope we are all having more sex than that!
    My second thought was that time is on our side. Social progress is always toward tolerance and acceptance of people who are unlike the majority, and I don’t think this is any different. That is not an excuse to be complacent, and we should all continue to rally and lobby and protest and push, but deep down I know that equal rights for homosexuality will come soon.

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  18. anonymous

    Karin – Yes, they are aware of my spirituality/beliefs. We have had very open and honest conversations. And yet, this issue does not define our varying relationships. Maybe the reason we can be friends is that I don’t tell them who to love and who not to love. I don’t tell them they are going to hell (I don’t believe that anyway), etc. It is just a non-issue with us. I don’t push what many of you see as “an agenda” and they don’t push theirs. I hate using that word because it implies that we all have ulterior motives and that is not the case here.
    Alan – Because of the conflict in my heart on this matter, I have spent hours researching scripture. I took (and continue to take) every argument using scripture in favor of homosexuality and re-read, researching the original intent of the word, the context in which the passages were written, even going back to the original Hebrew and Greek texts. I did not come to this lightly. You have your understanding and I have mine.
    I always doubt whether I should post or not. In this case, I should have held back.

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  19. Annie H.

    I know your heart’s in the right place, Ian. And I tend to agree, to an extent, that squeamishness about gay sex contributes something (albeit something difficult to quantify) to the conservative opposition to same-sex marriage. I personally believe that this feeling is, at core, a squeamishness about sex in general–cause lord knows (even if Mormons don’t) that there’s every type of person into every type of weird sex imaginable. Period.
    I tend to agree with Steve and anonymous that giving people who are allergic to ideas of sex outside the strict married vanilla variety MORE information about MORE weird sex would tend to have an effect in diametric opposition to what you’re seeking. It would give them more reasons to dismiss the validity of this issue–i.e. “They just want to parade around in assless pants with masks and whips and make a mockery of our American Values! Eeeek!”
    And, to be realistic, chances of swaying ANYone who has already chosen, given the sum total of their current life experience, to embrace one of the most distinctly codified of Christian churches, are probably pret-ty freaking low. However, if you would like to cause people in your extended family to THINK (which is what I feel you’re driving at) then I would elaborate on the points Steve brought up–that a) the extreme unlikelihood of the Mormon Church being forced into performing same-sex marriage ceremonies, and b) reflecting on the protections they receive as Americans to practice their religion as they choose, and how this issue is related to civil rights for ALL Americans. Like, how federal restrictions on gay people might end up inadvertently being restrictions on Mormons, or Christians.
    I also tend to agree with Dean in the sense that there is a wave of legislative activity around same-sex marriage which is almost certainly a harbinger of a larger sea change around this issue. However, we diverge in that I see this wave as pushing this country closer and closer TOWARDS an ultimate federal recognition of gay marriage on the basis of civil rights. I see Prop 8 and other similar efforts as being desperate attempts by small interest groups to stop this tide. But my guess is that within my lifetime we see a Constitutional amendment passed guaranteeing same-sex marriage full equality under federal law. And I’ll be dancing, cheering, and fighting to support such an amendment every step of the way.

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  20. Alan

    I am not clear on the pologamy / polygyny distinction as set out given the overlap the wisdom of wikipedia provides.
    But, with respect, that is not really the point. One sub-culture which has experienced judgment and fringe-i-ness and which holds as a core tenent “judge not lest ye be judged” really ought not go around judging other sub-cultures which have experienced judgment and fringe-i-ness if it expects not to be thought screamingly hypocritical.

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  21. Alan

    Anon: that is fine but please characterize your beliefs as a sub-set and not speaking for “Christians”. I, too, have studied and soul searched and having done so have been struck – as the Book of Job tells us is inevitable – by confusion people will have with understanding the diversity of creation. The person who assumes “the way” is standardized, white bread, everyone not-like-me is left out still has some understanding about justice to gain.
    By the way, this is absolutely core to Ian’s question as he has to tell those he meets through his booth that not appreciating the diversity of faithful and even struggling human experience is a denial of God’s richness. Sadly, this is the common trait with the professed puritan.

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  22. eric g.

    A quick trip to Park City could give Salt Lake/Orem types a chance to meet a real live homosexual. It’s a bit like Chapel Hill; an oasis of liberalism in the midst of conservatism.

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  23. Schultz

    Being one of the most conservative people on this board, I was prepared to post something about “the people have spoken” and “get it out of my face”.
    While I would like to think that it is as simple as “what happens in the bedroom should stay in the bedroom”, I know it is far more complex.
    One of my good high school friends posted the following on her blog and, after reading it, I finally have a much better understanding of the issues:
    http://duffyandlisa.blogspot.com/
    The roots of our morals and ethics begin at home and by god we need all the loving and caring homes we can get. I hope a change comes in the form of a constitutional amendment- because this is too far reaching for states to decide on their own.

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  24. kate

    Anon, can you clarify something for me?
    “I love them, but because of my spiritual beliefs, can not support anything that would give validity to the lifestyle.”
    “I don’t tell them they are going to hell (I don’t believe that anyway), etc.”
    If you don’t believe they’re going to hell, then what DO you believe that would make it a problem for you to “give validity to the lifestyle”?

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  25. Caroline

    I can’t believe the nail thing went over anyone’s head!
    To answer your question: the gays and lesbians I know are just sorta boring – like me. They’re like anyone else, their in committed relationships, go to work, the movies, etc. So not interesting. But that was your point, I think.
    My own commentary: it’s just a civil right. Period. Jeff and I both cried last year when we happened to run into the gay pride parade. We also had just gotten engaged a few days before, coincedentally. There were several couples holding signs that said “Together 40 years” all with impressive numbers of decades together, one pair of ladies had a sign that said “Together 60 years”. Everyone applauded and was hooting and hollering and all Jeff and I could think was that we hoped we could make it as long as some of these couples had and how unfair it was that we could get married and they can’t – a couple of young punks. It breaks my heart.

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  26. anonymous

    I’ll be the first to admit that I probably did not pick the best words to convey my meaning. I am not a writer and come here often to be amazed at the lofty levels of prose. “Validity” was not a good word choice.
    Support of people is different than support of legislation. This legislation forces me make the decision when it is really left up to God (if you so believe). I have to make a “judgement” or decision on the issue. I can’t vote for or against it without that.
    Alan, let me make it clear (again) that I have major issues in my life that I struggle with, daily, in my walk with God. If known to the readers of this blog, I am sure there would be many acusatory, pointed fingers saying, “And, you say you are a Christian?” Sorry, Alan, for my “many” comment, but where I live, that is the case. Conservative churches far outweigh liberal ones.
    I am not about to get into what I do believe – I have typed too much and opened up too much already. For brevity’s sake, in my line of belief, heaven and hell is first and foremost about the belief of your heart (dare I type the word Jesus), not about your transgressions.

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  27. Alan

    “…I have major issues in my life that I struggle with, daily, in my walk with God…”
    Anon: as do I so, as is often the case, we are not as far apart as we might appear. But as Ian has asked essentially about speaking to a Christian community, I think it is very good for you and I to have this discussion which illustrates one challenge he will inevitably face as well as the range of response that can be included as well as the range of disagreement within a civil society attempting to express and include a wide range of human experience of the well intended. Remember, Scottish philosopher David Hume was reported to have explained his absence from Edinburgh Sunday services by the presence there of so many money lenders and other gross sinners. We would think that just funny now.
    One thing I would point out is that this change of legislation would not have forced anything. It will remove a requirement. Marriage is not an act of law or even of one church or faith. The law recognizes the civil system of marriage that has existed in many forms in every community in the world. In my tradition, Scots Presbyterianism, there were four ways to marry only two of which were banns and church service. Self-declaration was one of them – which is essentially in the North American concept “common law marriage”, something which was unacceptable just a decade or two ago.

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  28. GFWD

    No one who opposes gay marriage has ever satisfactorily explained to me how a gay or lesbian marriage affects their own man/woman marriage. Because there is no tangible detraction from an existing hetero-sexual marriage, I cannot and will never understand why there is such opposition to a marriage between two people of the same gender.
    Someone’s divorce does not affect my marriage.
    Someone’s second, third or fourth marriage does not affect my marriage.
    How can a gay couple’s marriage affect your marriage or my marriage either?
    Perhaps one day a decision like the one in “Loving v. Virginia” will come to the gay community. Until then, love each other like there’s no tomorrow, get all the protections afforded to “domestic partnerships” and laugh at the fools who take their “legally sanctioned” marriages for granted.
    Annie, no dancing for gay marriage until I get my own personal Obama Won hooping video to “Signed Sealed and Delivered.”

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  29. Piglet

    And on a slightly more serious note–
    I grew up in a homogenous suburb. In my childhood, I was not taught to hate gays; I was taught by my peer group that the whole notion of same sex relationships was FUNNY. As in, “Boys kissing boys! Ewwww! (giggle)”. My image of a hypothetical gay person was the stereotypical lisping, limp wristed, clownish silly man, probably wearing a dress. Nothing hateful about it, but absolutely no respect or dignity either. I would never have tried to hurt them or take their rights away, but I would have hurt their feelings very much, just through thoughtlessness. I probably did, too, to those people I did not know had same-sex preferences. It never once occurred to me that there might be any gays in my conformist suburban hometown, or even that there were more than a few hundred gay people in the whole world. Remember, this was a long time ago, when I was a kid, and in a place where being a Democrat for Mondale was enough to brand me as a dangerous anarchist.
    What changed that? Going to a school and meeting some people who were out. Even more important, meeting some people who I did not know were gay, interacting with them normally for months, in some cases until I’d known them as friends for three years, and THEN they came out of the closet. Usually in response to a hateful homophobic incident.
    Not the first time, not the second, but after enough people I had already identified as being a lot like me came out, eventually I got the clue that the subculture in general really was, in fact, a lot like me. If I’d been taught actual hatred, it probably would have taken that many more examples to understand.
    I have also known enough Mormons who are in fact clean and polite and who vote Democrat and who oppose homophobic laws and who offer to share their stores of food and such in troubled economic times, that I don’t think of THEM as a subculture I’m keen on hating, either. Even if I do kinda wish for a bumper sticker that says MY TWO MOMS CAN BEAT UP YOUR SEVEN WIVES.

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  30. Paul G

    Make sure all the extra-retarded Christians and believers in Je-Zeus understand that I often have a good cry with my twin sister over the holidays b/c of the lifestyle she “chose” and how it would kill some of my relatives if they found out.
    I can’t help but think of how selfish my sister is on her insistence to continue on with the lifestyle she has chosen, in the face of death from shock. (<– please also note the sarcasm)

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  31. kmeelyon

    I can recall a Women’s Studies class I took at UNC-Chapel Hill in 1990. I remember a male student in the back of the class saying, “I don’t have anything against gay people, I just think it’s disgusting what they do in bed.”
    I remember angrily standing up and saying, “What WE do in bed? Actually, we don’t do anything in bed that you don’t do. There isn’t a single sexual act that gay people *can* do in bed that straight people don’t also do, as well. In fact, straight people do stuff in bed that we can’t and don’t do ourselves, but we certainly don’t corner the market on particular sex acts.”
    I don’t know why, but for some reason, this particular argument was compelling for this particular guy. He sat for a moment and thought about it and said, “Wow. You’re right.”
    So I still sometimes pull that one out and point out that gay folks do the same exact things in bed that straight people do.

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  32. RW

    I visited my parents in October. As I pulled up to the curb, I saw one of those yellow and blue protect marriage signs in their yard. I sat in the car for several minutes and contemplated going back home. Come to find out, my dad was the re-supplier of stolen Yes on 8 signs for the neighborhood. My mom, who has always voted democrat or green, is a supporter. I went to church with them that Sunday and heard numerous comments about calling lists and supporting the proposition. It filled me with sadness to sit there among people I know are good people and hear them advocate a position that denies rights to others.
    I talked to a Catholic friend after the election, who voted Yes on 8 (and she mentioned that the council of bishops donated a lot of money to the campaign), and she said that opposition against Mormon polygamy was not the same kind of prejudice, since polygamy still holds the potential for procreation. (I don’t exactly follow, since I know the straight folks are doing it for fun most of the time.)
    I am Mormon, and I struggle with it. I voted No on 8. I hope the church changes its stance in the future.

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  33. GFWD

    Four things:
    1. First, I like watching the three videos and seeing the renovation of that room from purple to cream; cluttered to neat.
    2. I like that Ryan Adams version of the Oasis song.
    3. I believe I have a crush on your abs.
    4. The hoop movement in the Prop 8 video looks like an optical illusion moving up and down your body. Pretty cool.

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  34. Summer

    Hey, I’ve got no problem with the gays. I even know a few. It’s the FAGGOTS I hate.
    KIDDING.
    It’s worth thinking about, since we’re on the subject of scripture, that most edicts were handed down in Biblical days (and quickly transformed into taboos or sins) because of some health issue or another. I’d guess anal sex was as popular as it is now, between secretive “straight” men who might leave their wives at home every Friday after work, knock back some Jesus juice, and “accidentally” fall on top of each other while bro-ing down in the fields with their sheep …
    So yeah, homosexuality used to be a no-no back then, according to scripture and The Man, but so was going to the bathroom and failing to beat your children.

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  35. kaz

    first, i think the main point here is that without direct exposure to different kinds of people, we are all a bit subject to the weird media and historical portrayals which equal “other”…exposure is good, and i think tolerance slowly seeps into community consciousness.
    i do NOT think equal rights are to be decided by the “people” – this is a legal issue, and, i’m surprised it hasn’t come up here yet that the results of the civil rights movement would not have happened at it been on the ballot.
    lastly, isn’t anyone else as concerned as i am about DIVORCE in the church?! forget gay marriage, i see more and more couples getting divorced! (yes, i’m bein facetious…but think about it…if you’re really concerned with christian dogma…)

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  36. kent

    > Kent: Yes, democracy can be messy and can get
    > things wrong. But, it is typically the losers
    > that swear democracy got it wrong on a specific
    > occasion.
    Dean: Ipso Facto.

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